Children of the Struggle

Good. Alright, well, hello again. And thank you for coming to share your story with us as a part of the Children of the Struggle Oral history collection. Today we are at New Day Christian Church in Morganton, North Carolina on Saturday, November 9th, 2024. And we are talking with Ms. Ruth. My name is Lexi and I'll be your primary interviewer again. We also have in the room Hayden, Ella, and Clara. We are all students here at Appalachian State University and we're conducting these interviews as a part of a class project. We've got a standard set of 22 questions and we may or may not get through all of them depending on what you'd like to share with us. And if there's any question you prefer not to answer, we'll be happy to move on to another one. Okay. Again, thank you much for your participation and we're gonna get started now.

Ruth Roseboro: Okay.

Lexi Robinson: All right. So once again, will you share with us your full name and then if you had any other nicknames that you went by in school?

Ruth Roseboro: My full name is Ruth Elizabeth Roseboro, and I will not share my nickname.

Lexi Robinson: That's totally all right. Okay. And what school did you attend before desegregation?

Ruth Roseboro: Mountain View Elementary School.

Lexi Robinson: Awesome. How old were you when your school was integrated?

Ruth Roseboro: 10

Lexi Robinson: 10. So fifth grade.

Ruth Roseboro: And let, let me be clear, there was two, there were different steps to the integration piece. Okay. There was a group of only 28 children that participated with the first desegregation in the, in the Morganton City schools.

While those 28 children participated, the rest of the children continued going to the original predominantly African American school. Okay. So yeah, I was 10.

Lexi Robinson: So were you a member of the first 28?

Ruth Roseboro: I was with the first 28.

Lexi Robinson: Okay. How do you think your particular experience as being one of the first might have been different from other Black peers that didn't, weren't a part of that first movement?

Ruth Roseboro: Well, it was, I, I don't wanna necessarily say it was traumatic, but it was very different. For me, I've always been, had an adventurous spirit.

So I, I just always kinda rolled with the punches. So while it was different, it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily devastating in the beginning because I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know what it was gonna be. But in my upbringing, I had never been taught to be discriminatory toward anybody else. Of course, all my neighborhood looked like me. And we all got along. And for people who didn't look like me, I was never taught to disrespect them or I didn't necessarily feel disrespected by them. I know that may sound crazy, but in our neighborhood, we had Caucasian store owners and we went to their stores and nobody, you know?

So, I, I wasn't taught, I guess, hate or to discriminate or to look at anybody different. We all were just human.

Lexi Robinson: Mm-Hmm.

Ruth Roseboro: So,

Lexi Robinson: Yes, ma'am.

Ruth Roseboro: For my peers that did not go with the first wave, some of them were like, “So what's that like?” What I mean, you know, and I ain't know what this, I mean, what's it like? I don't know. I'm just navigating learning my way.

Now with that being said, I may be getting ahead of myself. You asked me what, what would, what did you ask me?

Lexi Robinson: I think you pretty much answered it, like how your experience in the first wave,

Ruth Roseboro: Because I was getting ready to just go.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. But you didn't lead me into the next question. So that was, that was great. What was it like being Black in Burke County while you were a child? 'Cause you touched on it with having store owners and like most of your neighborhood being very similar to you. But is there any other events or memories that stick out?

Ruth Roseboro: Now, piggybacking off of what I said, growing up as a minority or Black in Morganton, I, I was only allowed, or I only, my world consisted of my neighborhood.

And then going to school, which wasn't necessarily in my neighborhood, but it was in my shared community. Right. African American. I wasn't allowed, or I did not go into what we call town. I just was in my neighborhood. So my neighborhood was my neighborhood. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know the nuances, per se, of everything that was going on outside of my neighborhood, except in bits and pieces. Every now and then I, I don't know, Lord have mercy. I'm thinking I might have been 10 before I went to town. I don't, but what I did notice when I went was the fact that I remember the white only signs on the water fountains, and I remember colored only, and I remember that when I looked at those water fountains, the colored only water fountains always had trash, debris, and stuff in 'em. People spit gum in them tobacco, whatever. So of course, I, I would never drink out of that. But the white fountains were clean.

And there was also like if you had to use the restroom, there was a place we were allowed to go that was under the, so-called jail. And it was horrible. So, so much so to, I would never, ever use it. I mean, it's like, I just have to wait till I get home. And the funny thing about home, back again to my neighborhood is our town, like this area right here, this is part of where I grew up. But this was not considered town, the city limits, this was really outside the city limits, so it was kind of country.

Duh. And now it's part of the city.

So it is so weird. And like where a little Guatemala is up the street, that was my neighborhood.

So…

Lexi Robinson: Seeing the change over time has been

Ruth Roseboro: Yeah. It's like,

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. So when you initially found out that you were gonna be going to an integrated school, how did that make you feel? I know you're only 10, but do you remember feeling any particular way?

Ruth Roseboro: Now once again, part of my growing up was in this area right here. Like I said, when I was maybe eight, we moved across town to another area. Being in that area is what precipitated me ending up going into that first wave. Had I stayed in this area, it would not have happened.

But because we had moved and the Civil Rights Movement, all of that stuff had occurred. And the mothers, our, our, our neighborhood was saying, “Listen, our children have to walk across town to get to where they're going and it's not safe for them.”

Whereas, I know I'm sounding weird, but whereas if I was in this neighborhood, I didn't have to go across town to get to my school because it was sort of in the same, the same vicinity. Vicinity. As opposed to when we moved and where I had to go, come from to get back to my neighborhood school. So when I found out that, that that's what was gonna happen, because we weren't part of we as children because we were children, I mean, right. Yeah. Children to be seen and not heard, and how things are so much different now. I don't quite get it. But anyway the adults made decisions.

And of course they were looking out for our, well welfare wellbeing. But when I found out that there, what had been decided was that we will, to go to my now neighborhood school, which was a white school, I was like, “Huh, I wonder how that's gonna be? Hmm…I wonder how that's gonna be.”

Lexi Robinson: Just uncertainty. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. so what were your parents feelings about, do you have any idea how did they push for it or anything like that?

Ruth Roseboro: I think my parents were more or less for the good of the whole. And while they might have had some concerns, they were also concerned about our wellbeing and what we had to go through and encounter coming from where we lived to get to where we needed to go. And so the, it was more, the less of two evils, I guess, you know?

Because like I said, we moved from this neighborhood to that neighborhood, but my grandparents still lived in this neighborhood. And when we would come to visit them, we didn't have transportation. We had to walk and people were not really kind. They were mean, they were cruel. We had been egged just trying to come to see my grandparents. You know, we'd be called names, people ride by and just, you know, so that was the same type of attitude that we had to go through as children to get from our neighborhood to the school we needed to go through.

I don't understand. I don't understand people's thought processes about that. I just don't, I still have trouble with it. To this day, I don't get it. So, anyway.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. And then what are some of your earliest memories about desegregation? Were there any stories that you'd like to share? Relationships or any, just like overall experiences that you went through?

Ruth Roseboro: There's several. During my first years I was in elementary school. And you know, like I said, it was, it's different for the school we went to, as it was for us. So some of the kids were looking at us like, “Something's wrong with them.” I dunno. And this one girl in particular, she was following me around and, you know, I'm just trying to go to class or, you know, navigate this new system I find myself in and she just kept following me. And finally I turned around and I said, “What? Why you following me? What do you want?” And she said, “Well, I'm looking for your tail.” And I'm like, “My what?” She said, “I'm looking for your tail. Y'all all got tails like monkeys, don't you?” And I was like, “Not that I know of!” I mean, what, you know? And I just, duh, “No, I don't have one, so stop following me.” It’s just awful. It's awful. Yeah. I, you know, and it's like I'm saying, who, who taught you that?

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. Yeah. That's the real problem too.

Ruth Roseboro: You, someone said that in your home, you heard them or, you know, some, some interaction. And so you were, you really believed that. And that was sad. And then I had this other one that she thought, “Well, I'm just gonna, I don't know, just push this girl around.” 'Cause I was thin little wispy, the little bitty. But I had fight in me. And they didn't know that. So she thought, “Well, I'll just push her.” And I was like, oh, gosh. So she did, she pushed me and then she kicked at me and I was like, something is wrong with you. So I said, “You better to not do that again.” And she was like, “Oh, I'm gonna!” So she kicked at me again and I grabbed her foot and flipped her on the ground. And I was like, okay. Okay. And that was that. So with those two encounters, as the years went on, we became friends. I mean, you know, and it was 'cause, anyway

So that's my first encounter in the elementary school. And then as time progressed, you know, we navigated, we went on and stuff. And I'm, I'm sure there was still others, the white children that had feelings too, and felt like this has been shoved down our throat and forced on us. I mean, we, we as children, were all experiencing that same thing. So as we went through that was elementary, go through middle school, and then to high school, what, what I began to see and recognize is that things are still not equal. We are not, we are not considered a part of this fabric. Not totally.

Lexi Robinson: Mm-Hmm.

Ruth Roseboro: So,

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. That leads us really well into another question. So could you tell me about what a typical day at school was like before integration and then what it looked like after? How those two situations compared to one another?

Ruth Roseboro: Before integration, I always felt like us as a community, as a community of people were really community. There were programs and events and stuff, and we as a community were always a part of it. There were different activities that went on at the schools that we as a community were a part of it. And so you know, I just always looked forward to my time getting through elementary school to where I would get to go to the high school, the Olive Hill High School, which was our predominantly Black high school. And I just looked forward to that day because there were activities, there was stuff that went on.

After integration, things changed. My perception changed because the community was gone. The community that we had once had was gone. And it was different. And it was like, we weren't always a part of everything that was going on. Some things, yeah. Everything? No. So it, it just shifted. There was a shift.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. A lot of other people have touched on that, as well. The way that the sense of community was almost lost. Do you feel like that only occurred in the school system or like outside of it as well?

Ruth Roseboro: Basically, in the school system.

There were subtle shifts in community in that, in the fact that, how I say this, like all of our teachers, we knew. Everybody knew everybody. Yeah, you knew your teachers. Your teachers knew you. Your teachers knew your family. Your school and church was your community. So everybody, they went to school together and they went to church together. Or even if they went to a different church, they were still connected because you’re community. You could live in the same community and go to a different church, but you were still part of a community. Okay, because school helped bridge that too.

When integration occurred, the teachers that you knew had grown up with suddenly was faced with a dilemma in order for this experiment to take hold, the powers that be decided that the minority teachers were not all going to have positions. So that made a shift in that the teacher that I might have had and known all my life through third grade was no longer a part of my life when I went to fourth grade, fifth grade. You see what I'm saying? And so now I'm with this other person, I don't know this person, this person doesn't know me. This person doesn't value me as the third grade teacher who knew me, knew my family, went to church with me, or went to my sister church. You know what I'm saying? So, there was a shift and not necessarily a good shift.

So, some of those instructors lost their positions or they ended up trying to commute to a whole different county, community. Just, you know, things changed. And that, in my opinion, started the unraveling thread of community.

Lexi Robinson: Mm-Hmm.

Yeah. so especially getting new teachers and being in new buildings, things like that after desegregation, did you feel that you had the resources that you needed to succeed?

Ruth Roseboro: I, I don't know how to answer that.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. Okay. 'Cause you like touched on how, like you didn't even feel as though you were valued a lot of the times.

Ruth Roseboro: Right. And, and, and I guess the reason why I'm saying I don't even know how to answer that is because if it is not, if it wasn't within me, no one was going to offer me help per se. If I was struggling with something, I was unseen. It was unseen. It didn't matter. Versus back in my old neighborhood, in my old community, if they could see things, a teacher might say, “Oh, she's got a hole in her sweater. Let's see if we can't find her a sweater without holes or something.” But when the integrated school, it's like, “Oh, she's got a hole in her sweater. Well, ain't that just like…” I mean, I'm assuming that's the attitude, but it was, it was looked at differently. “Oh well, too bad, so sad.”

It is different. It was very different.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. Just like a general loss of support?

Ruth Roseboro: Yeah. Yeah.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. I understand. So what kind of extracurriculars did you participate in? In or outside of the schools? Before and after desegregation.

Ruth Roseboro: Okay. Before everything that went on within the Black schools, the community was allowed to be, if not a participant, an observer. And it was okay. Whether they, they were having a pageant, a glee club performance play or whatever. You were allowed to, you know, go participate. And in anticipation of eventually, “I'm gonna get to do that too!”

After integration, there were different stumbling blocks always put in place. For instance, before integration, if you were in elementary school and then you got to high school, to the Black high school, and you wanted to be in the band, and you wanted to be in the glee club, you could do that because you would be taught. You would be taught the music, you would be taught the notes. You would be taught everything you didn't know coming from elementary school to the high school to where you could be an active participant and be successful. After integration, what had happened was you had to start band in elementary school. You had to kind of start chorus in elementary school. And if you didn't start there and get your instrument and learn how to play, now my, okay, we talking about money. Who, what, what instrument? What what you talking?

So that when you got to high school, you weren't gonna get to be a part of the band. 'Cause nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna teach. You supposed to learn that in elementary school. Come on. So the disadvantages was evident. I mean, and to me it was, I don't know, maybe that's how they always did stuff. Who knew? We don't know. We weren't there. So, but, but it was a deterrent to us.

The only thing that seemed to be participatory for students was sports. And there were certain ones that were looked at as, “Yeah, they good. They can help us win, but that's it. You are not gonna be in the beta club. You're not gonna be in the honor society. You're not gonna be in the Glee club, you're not gonna be in nothing, but we can use you on the field or on the court or on the track.” And there in came our resistance and we said, “No, we ain't, we ain't doing this. We're not doing this because if we can't participate in everything, we are not gonna participate in nothing.”

Secondary Interviewer: Right.

Ruth Roseboro: And that was my first defiance.

Well outside of flipping the girl, but…and it was in high school. So we decided to stage a coup and that's what we did.

Lexi Robinson: Wow. so you talked about personal acts of defiance. Do you have any other experiences like that, that you can share with us?

Secondary Interviewer: Or the coup?

Lexi Robinson: Or the coup? Just even more about the coup.

Secondary Interviewer: Sounds really interesting.

Ruth Roseboro: Well, we like I said Okay, the, the schools were separated by okay. You got elementary and it went from the first to the, or kindergarten, to sixth grade. Then you had middle school, which was sixth and seventh. And they did it this way to accommodate all the students because once the integration occurred, they ended up with a number of students they hadn't anticipated before. So then, okay, so you had the middle school, seventh and eighth, and then you had the ninth grade school taken out of everything and given a school of their own. And then you had high school, which was ten through twelve.

So we were in high school and said, “Okay, we're not doing this, we're not gonna do this. We can't be a part of everything. We are just not gonna be a part of nothing and you're not gonna use us to win games and stuff. And then we can't do nothing else.” So a group of us just strategized and thought about, we are going to, we in defiance, we're just gonna walk outta here because you don't accept us any other way through anything else. With anything else. So we don't, we reject you, we don't accept you either. And so we got word to the, the junior high students, we got word to the ninth graders and the groups that was in the high school and at, I think it was my 11:00 AM maybe give or take, was our time to just get up and walk out. And that's what we did.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. It's really inspiring to hear of students like being their own advocates and promoting social change. So I thank you for sharing that with us. Moving on to some questions about like personal relationships. In your experience or observation, did any family or friendship relationships change because of desegregation? And if so, how?

Ruth Roseboro: I don't, say it again?

Lexi Robinson: Did like your family relationship or friendship, relationships change in any way during desegregation?

Ruth Roseboro: I mean, I gained new friends.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah.

Ruth Roseboro: You know, and, and it's really, really funny, but it's like spirit is everywhere and in everything. That's my opinion.

Kindred spirits find each other. And there is just something about that that, you know, you don't even have to say nothing, it's just you can, you can feel a person and a person can feel you. And so I gained friends that I wouldn't ordinarily have. And you know, of course I already had my nuclear of friends that I grew up with. So I would say I gained some.

Now there might've been some that said, “She's so chummy with all of them…” You know, I don't know. But like, I always saw stuff mostly through rose colored glasses. So if somebody didn't like me, I didn't care. I mean, I didn't care! So what?! I just went right on to la la la my merry way. I mean, so I don't, I gained friends if I lost any, I don't know. I don't even care.

Lexi Robinson: That's good. That's a good way to live life. Do you know of any leaders, groups or collective events that you or your family participated in? So either through the church or the NAACP or any other organization?

Ruth Roseboro: Well, as for me, I was always active. Well, no, I won't say active, but I was always a member of the NAACP ever since I was probably 16, 17. I was young.

And as far as my parents, they never discouraged me from being, being or do doing anything. And like I said, I was never taught hatred or anything like that in my home or to look down on anybody or to treat anybody differently. And so as far as social action and justice, whatever I did, I was never chastised for it or, you know, only cautionary things like, “You don’t need to go there.” Or, “Be careful about X, Y, Z.” But as far as justice or social action and stuff, I was never discouraged from that. And we participated in most everything community wise that was there. It was always church. And as a matter of fact, church and the NAACP in that time was in lockstep with each other. So I mean, you know, it was not a far stretch for a NAACP meeting to be held at the church or you know, and political information given out at the church. Whereas now it's this separation of church and state and you better not do that because somebody got mad because somebody was informing somebody or something. And so we gotta make sure that's a separate thing or else we'll, you know, bring charges against you. And that's really true. That's crazy. But yeah. Anyway.

That's my memory.

Lexi Robinson: Did you have any experiences with discrimination outside of the school environment that you'd like to share?

Ruth Roseboro: Well, like I said, you know, like whenever we would travel from one part of town to having to come through town or one part of the city coming through town to come and visit my grandparents. Yeah. I mean, it was ugly. It was ugly. So much so that we always went in groups and my whole family would come, you know, not one of us or just two. No, the whole family would come or because of what might happen.

And as far as I remember when I was old enough to like be in town or go to town and stuff, it's, it's like there were stores like Woolworth's, Roses and they had these lunch counters and you could order food, but you could not sit in at the lunch counter. You could not sit in there and eat it. And some of the little cafes and stuff you had to go to the back and order your food at the back door and get your food and then leave, eat it on the street, or whatever. But you could not come in. And it was a way of life. Did it feel good? No. But I mean, we knew that's how it was. And I never, going into a store to shop, I never went by myself and you know, we just always stayed together. If we are, if we are going down the hair care, hair care aisle, all of us is going down the aisle, we're not gonna be separated because anything could happen. So.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. And then this is a really important question, I feel like. Did your experiences with desegregation shape you as an adult? Either personally and in or in your career? And if so, how?

Ruth Roseboro: Oh, probably. And not necessarily in a total positive light. There were, there was some sometimes within myself, I would feel like, because of experiences or whatever that I was less than. And regardless as to my abilities or what I might have thought I could do in myself, I felt like, “Well, ain't no need to try that. You're never going to get that or have that or do that or whatever.” Because psychologically in my head, it was there. But then on the other hand, certain things that I did is probably, I did because of it.

Lexi Robinson: So if you don't mind sharing with us what, what was your career or is your career, if you're still working, what did you end up doing?

Ruth Roseboro: Well, let me say this. I've always been a community activist, a community person. So I mean, like I said, when we did the coup from very early age, I've just always worked within my community. My career has been in the human services arena. My degree is in human services and most of the jobs that I have had have been dealing with people.

So and uplifting them in any way I can with capacity that I work with them in. I do still work.

I'm a senior citizen. But because now give you an example. I went to apply for a job at the psychiatric hospital. And I think I had my associates and the job that I was applying for was a simple job. I think it was something like maybe working in the mail room, being a mail clerk. The interviewer, because I, I'm a single parent too. The interviewer that interviewed me for the job asked me how did I have two children and not be married? What has that got to do with sorting mail? What I mean? Huh? They, they have the same father. I mean, what, what is it you're looking for here? Just a way to, I don't know. Did I get the job? Well, no. How'd that make me feel, less than. Why? What did that have to do with anything? I'm Black, he's white. What? Where's the fairness in that? What? So, you know, along the way, little things like that would keep me from either applying for stuff I knew I was qualified to do or capable of doing and taking less than. And as a result of that paying into the system, I, I, I got behind. So that, that brings me back too. I'm old enough to be retired and not have to work, but I'm sorry, I got bills. No. So I still work, but I do data entry for the Department of Health and Human Services and that's still human services. Full circle. That's who I am.

Lexi Robinson: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that.

Dr. McKesson: Gonna need to wrap it up, guys.

Lexi Robinson: Okay. One last question, then.

Ruth Roseboro: Why do I talk too much? No, I'm teasing.

Lexi Robinson: Alright. Well then we will just end with one last question. Are there any other stories or thoughts that you'd like to share or are there any other questions that you wish we had asked?

Ruth Roseboro: I really can't think of anything. I hope I've been helpful.

I think this is just so interesting and the fact that you all have wanted to do this. Especially because of some of the flap that's going on in the ether about why our stories, why they're not important, who wants to know about that? That's, you know, making you guys feel bad. I mean, did anything I say to you make you feel like I was putting you down?

Lexi Robinson: No, not the slightest.

Ruth Roseboro: I don't understand what they're talking about. I'm like, what? This is true. This is real. It happened. It is not right. But it happened. You can't change it, but it happened.

And I mean, I think back to the Trail of Tears and I'm saying that happened. It wasn't right, but it happened and you should know about it so nobody ever does that again or puts anybody in that situation. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's just,

Secondary Interviewer: If you can't change the past, then there's nothing to do then learn and grow from it.

Ruth Roseboro: That's exactly right. Yes. That's how I look at it. So I ain't tried to make nobody feel bad.

Lexi Robinson: You definitely did not. Did not.

Ruth Roseboro: It happened.

Lexi Robinson: And they're your own experiences. So we're really glad that you were able to share those with us. Thank you.

Ruth Roseboro: Yeah.

Lexi Robinson: Do you guys have anything you want to add?

Ruth Roseboro: I will show you. Wait a minute. Whoa, wait a minute. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop and let you go. Okay. This, okay. Because we protested in March because they did not want us to do nothing else but play sports.

Lexi Robinson: Are you in this room now?

Ruth Roseboro: I’m in it.

Lexi Robinson: Which one?

Ruth Roseboro: Can you not find me? I'm the one on the end. No, I'm teasing. No I'm not. Can you not find me for real?

Lexi Robinson: Oh, well I just wasn't sure which one. Well, but I see you now.

Ruth Roseboro: No you don't. Which one am I?

Lexi Robinson: On the end?

Ruth Roseboro: No.

Lexi Robinson: Oh the glasses! Duh. With glasses. Duh. I didn't know if your vision got worse over the years!

Ruth Roseboro: Duh! I've never been able to see so duh. Hey! So Yeah. You know, that was part of it because all the, and as a result I was one of the first ones to be a cheerleader when we got to do, be in chorus and drama club and everything. But that's just,

Lexi Robinson: Well, thank you very much.

Ruth Roseboro: You're quite welcome.

Lexi Robinson: For your time, your stories.

Ruth Roseboro: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you guys for indulging me in these needs. Yes, thank you. Is that it? Yeah.

Lexi Robinson: All of these will be transcribed and Dr. Mckesson can get those back to you. But yeah, if you have any other questions for her, she'll be there on the way out too.