Children of the Struggle

Hi, and thank you for coming to share your story with us today as part of the Children of the Struggle Oral history collection. We are at New Day Christian Church in Morganton, North Carolina on Saturday November 9th, 2024. And we are talking with Pam Andrews G Andrews. My name is Alex Hopper Hopper and I'll be your primary interviewer. And we also have, if you would like to introduce yourself.

Reagan Petto: I'm Reagan Petto Pet and I'll be the note taker. Mm-Hmm. .

Katie Byer: And I'm Katie Byer Byer and I'll be the secondary interviewer .

Alex Hopper: Okay. Uh, we are all students of Appalachian State University and we're conducting these interviews as part of a class project. We have a standard set of 22 questions we may or may not get to through them all depending on what you'd like to share with us. If there is any question you prefer not to answer, we'll move on.

Pam Andrews: Okay.

Alex Hopper: We will not you, we will not force you to answer anything you don't wanna say. And thank you so much for coming. We value your time and hope you value ours. Let's get started.

Pam Andrews: Okay.

Alex Hopper: So before getting started, um, what school did you attend before desegregation?

Pam Andrews: Mm-Hmm? . Morganton High School.

Alex Hopper: And I imagine that was where you were after desegregation too, right?

Pam Andrews: I was. I graduated from there.

Alex Hopper: I suppose, um, let's get started with um, what were the numbers like? Um, how many black students did you see in your classroom compared to the overall total? Right

Pam Andrews: After segregation, one of, I counted in my annual 14 pictures. Now I can't tell you the enrollment 'cause I really don't know.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. .

Pam Andrews: But there were 14 in my senior annual.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. .

Did they end up being isolated wherever they were? 'cause it feels like they would be spread out.

Pam Andrews: Well, I felt like they sat among us.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. .

Pam Andrews: But you know, we've discussed this with some of the basketball players we've gotten together since we've grown up. And we didn't make 'em part, we didn't ask them to come to our house. That, which is wrong when you grow up you learn. But, uh, there mighta been some of the boys that were really good athletes that really got in with other students, but it wasn't like we treated our whites that were there before they came in.

Alex Hopper: So would you say that there was still a social social segregation even after

Pam Andrews: Sure.

Sure. And looking in my life from after I graduated it, I was not exposed to African Americans, I would say until really related to 'em, until I moved back here in the eighties.

Alex Hopper: Um, I would say Did you ever notice, um, when you were in the discrepancies between schools, especially before desegregation, between like things like transportation, what books they got, um, maybe even things like band uniforms? We've heard a lot about those.

Pam Andrews: No, I don't, I do realize that from some of the stories I've heard from, from my basketball, the girls that played basketball, they felt like they were graded different on, on exams. And one was a valedictorian at Olive Hill when she came to Morganton, her first English paper she wrote, she got an F and she's now has a doctorate degree. So I can't explain why that happened, but I felt like there was a difference. And I know that in one of my classes of foreign language, you could see that my profe- my teacher was extremely nervous with them being in the class, the African Americans, being there 'cause it was new and we were all nervous 'cause we didn't, hadn't been through this before. We didn't know what was, exactly how all this came about.

Alex Hopper: Was there any backlash that resulted from that? Things like, I don't know, group intimidation tactics, or

Pam Andrews: I never saw that. There could have been. And and if you ask them, the African Americans, they may say and tell you stories. I never heard 'em. Never did.

Alex Hopper: So it was always kept on the down low sort of if it did happen,

Pam Andrews: If it did happen, I never heard that.

Alex Hopper: Um,

Pam Andrews: But, but the two girls that were on our basketball team, can I tell you that?

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm.

Pam Andrews: that they were really a part. I mean we didn't get together after school, but they were treated as good as the other girls were treated. And, and they really were. And we couldn't have won the title we won without them. But, but they were special and we still get together with them today.

Alex Hopper: So I suppose outside of sports and stuff, were there any relationships developed between maybe African American students that you weren't like, say playing a sport with or maybe someone who was just in your class?

Pam Andrews: I had no, I had no relationship with anybody but the two basketball girls.

Alex Hopper: So would you say it was really those extracurriculars, those sports and stuff, those things that build unity? 'cause they volunteered to participate.

Pam Andrews: Right. And

Alex Hopper: That built unity between two separate groups.

Pam Andrews: Right. And and there's a picture, and I don't have it, but, uh, there's a picture of the, the gym when we were playing basketball and you, there is a lot of African Americans in mixed in and it was beginning to become part of, um, of our social lives. I do wanna say that when we've had reunions, we have had one person that was in our class that comes to every one of them. But the rest of them, and I understand why they don't come. They, they didn't get to be part of us like they should, should. And as you get to be an adult, you learn these things. But we've only had one that comes back to our reunions.

Alex Hopper: Um, were there any notable African American teachers when you were in school? We

Pam Andrews: We had one

Alex Hopper: One. One. Yeah. One was the number we've gotten from a lot of People.

Pam Andrews: One

Alex Hopper: mm-Hmm. .

Pam Andrews: And he, he turned out to be fantastic and he was in our school system for years.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. ,

Pam Andrews: Coach Mack.

Alex Hopper: Um, perhaps you've considered this now, but even back then, did you consider what hap what may have happened to, um, African American teachers as schools began to close? 'cause we've heard that the African American schools ended up getting shut down.

Pam Andrews: Yeah, they did. And, and Coach Mack was the only teacher I was exposed to that was African American. Uh, and I really can't tell you what happened to the other teachers. I mean, we had so much, I know it was really, really hard for them, but we didn't know how to act. We didn't know what to do. We were as lost as, I don't know why, but it was a different world back then.

Katie Byer: Did you personally have Coach Mac or have any experiences you wanted to share?

Pam Andrews: I do not, no. He was, I never had him, but I, I know all about him and then I've experienced him in life.

Alex Hopper: Um, did it ever feel like even after integration happened that there was any resource discrepancies, even if they were minor, such as counselors not wanting to work with African American students or anything of that sort

Pam Andrews: During school? I mean during, while I was a student at the high school.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. ,

Pam Andrews: We only had one counselor and she was a counselor for everyone. And if she mistreated or didn't take care of 'em the way we were taken care and she was wrong. But I've never heard that. So it could have happened. I don't know.

Alex Hopper: But I mean, she's over what? I don't think ,

Pam Andrews: What's that?

Alex Hopper: I would say there probably wasn't nothing. If there's one

Pam Andrews: Well, I hadn't heard of any.

Alex Hopper: Um, let's see. Um, did desegregation ever cause any tension between people you knew before it, desegregation?

Pam Andrews: Well, the, the only thing I can remember is back when all this started, we had a white recreation center and we had a black recreation center. And when all this came about and it was happening, and I, I never knew who did it or why they did it. I was asking the librarian just now before I came in, they pad locked chains, our recreation centers because the people that be, whoever it was, didn't want African Americans going in into their recreation center. And it was really, I don't think anything bad happened that I know of. But, but we were all kind of scared because there was, you know, a lot of tension on on keeping them out.

Alex Hopper: Did you ever recognize any leaders of the integration movements of things like the NAACP act taking action in your community or any individuals going outta their way to push things forward

Pam Andrews: To bring them in, to make them acceptable? Or what do you mean bring them?

Alex Hopper: Um, I suppose this would be about the time people were pushing for policy. So things like right before that transition happened.

Pam Andrews: Well, because, you know, I was sort of surprised.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm.

Pam Andrews: I mean, it just happened and maybe it's 'cause I was a teenager that, that wasn't important to me. But a- a- and my dad was in education. He taught one year there at Morganton before this happened. And he was in, uh, education at North Pine School for the deaf. And I never heard them discussing all this hap- going to happen. I don't know, it just seemed to surprise me.

Alex Hopper: So e- was, what was the news you were getting like in Morganton about this sort of thing? Like when did you end up hearing about something like Brown v Board

Pam Andrews: ? Now? What time did I I have lived in la la land in high school, but I only remember when they came. So I-I-I-I was surprised. Maybe I was just like I said, young and, and

Alex Hopper: Teenagers, teenage?

Pam Andrews: Yeah. I didn't pay attention.

Alex Hopper: Hmm. So, um, do you have any experiences, have you witnessed anything that you may want to say about discrimination outside of the school? I imagine that other than, you know, you've already mentioned the, um, the rec center. Was there anything else sort of like that, that you saw?

Pam Andrews: No, that was what, um, the recreation center was the big thing. I mean, you went there after school, you went there, they had dances on the weekends. I had bands and it was a center of hub of activity. And uh, it was our fun place to go. A safe place to go. That really was hard to understand what happened there. But, but as you grow up, you understand what happened. So, but nothing else, you know, I mean, and maybe I should, we've had the KKK back long years ago, March through downtown Morganton, but I cleared away from that. I didn't wanna go uptown and check it out, but it did happen.

Alex Hopper: Uh,

Katie Byer: when was that?

Pam Andrews: Oh boy. . You remember? I was young back then. Um, I'm thinking maybe 73, 74 maybe.

Videographer: Um, it's probably before this Bicentennial 76. Was it before it was it?

Pam Andrews: Yeah, because I had moved back here with my children, uh, and my husband and, and that was the big news all over. And, and they are scary. I mean, I saw pictures. It, it was a scary situation.

Alex Hopper: Do you feel like that le- left a lasting impression on anyone, any African Americans in Morganton?

Pam Andrews: I'm sure it scared 'em to death. I don't know that. I'm just, that's my opinion. And there's also, uh, and maybe I shouldn't say this, but there is a, a division, uh, a little subdivision of Morganton called Salem. And, um, they've never allowed African Americans and there might in their developments, in their, their area, and this goes up until, I don't know if anybody's there now, but they would, if one moved in, there was cross burnings in their yards. And I, and that's awful to say in this day and age that that happened here, but it happened.

Alex Hopper: Um, did your experiences ever change how you thought, ended up thinking as an adult? Um,

Alex Hopper: I know that well. Yeah. I played football when I was in high school.

Pam Andrews: So you have to be a team player or you don't ma you can't do it by yourself.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. .

Pam Andrews: So,

Alex Hopper: Um, so are there any other, we're at the end of our official list of questions now. Are there any other experiences, any feelings you wanna share before we sign off?

Pam Andrews: No, I don't. I just hate things happened the way they did. But I think things have come around and changed for the best.

Videographer: Did you have any pictures you wanted to share?

Alex Hopper: Yeah, since we're on video,

Videographer: We can get those on camera if you wanna hold 'em up.

Pam Andrews: Well this, this is, um, this is Charlene and Connie and this is girls that won the championship and that's them in the huddle before we, we go to play, I think our final game.

Videographer: So this was a state championship for high school as far back in those days.

Pam Andrews: Uhhuh . Yeah. We went as far as we could go. So we say we claimed state championship.

Videographer: And who was, who was the coach of the team?

Pam Andrews: Mrs. Maxina Amos. And what was so good about that team is she was a Lumbee Lumbee Indian.

Alex Hopper: Mm-Hmm. .

Pam Andrews: And she was our teacher and our coach and she was there and really knew how to help Charlene and Connie because she'd been discriminated against. So it made everything so much better with her guidance. Uh, I, that's just pictures of, of uh, I see. I have a picture and here we are senior players and, and which one's you Yeah, one's you, where are you down there? But, but I think Charlene and Connie really, really enjoyed being on the team, but I still don't think that they felt at peace being with us. And I can understand that completely.

That it?

Alex Hopper: Any, anything else before we sign off?

Pam Andrews: No,

Videographer: thank you.

Alex Hopper: Thank you for your time.