Children of the Struggle

Reagan Petto: How are you doing today?

Nancy Phifer: I'm great.

Reagan Petto: Good. Um, I'm gonna go ahead and share, like, a short intro...

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm.

Reagan Petto: ...that we wrote as a class.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm.

Reagan Petto: Um, so I'm gonna just read off of the paper for just a second. So, hi, and thank you for coming to share your story with us today as part of the Children of Struggle Oral History Collection. We are at New Day Christian Church in Morganton, North Carolina on Saturday, November 9th, 2024. And we are talking with Nancy Phifer. Um, how would you like to be addressed?

Nancy Phifer: Nancy.

Reagan Petto: Nancy. Great. My name is Reagan and I'll be your primary interviewer

Nancy Phifer: You're welcome.

Reagan Petto: Let's get started. Um, so if you would just like to share your name and then if you went by a different name in school, if you'd wanted to share that.

Nancy Phifer: My name now and when I was in school was Nancy Phifer.

Reagan Petto: Great. Keeping it consistent. Okay. Um, and how old were you when your school was integrated?

Nancy Phifer: I was born in nineteen fif-- thirteen. I had to do the math. [19]13. Eighth grade.

Reagan Petto: Okay. Um, so, I need to just get myself situated with these questions. So, you were already attending like a white school when it was integrated, correct?

Nancy Phifer: That's correct.

Reagan Petto: Um, what was that transition like early on for you?

Nancy Phifer: I was in Morganton Junior High School and a group of black students, both in elementary, junior high, and high School, lived close. You probably know all this, but I'm gonna repeat it anyway. Um, lived close to the white schools and they were having to go way across town to the black schools. So as you know, the, their, their mothers got together and insisted that they, or fought for them to get to come to the white schools. So, I don't know how many, so it was just a handful of students, those that lived in the neighborhood near the white schools. Okay?

Reagan Petto: Yeah.

Nancy Phifer: And to Morganton Junior High School, in my eighth grade class, I can remember four people--four black people. One remains a good friend to this day. But I, I don't know if there were more than that or not, but we had a homeroom and at that time, homerooms, you can stop me if I'm talking too much.

Reagan Petto: [mumbles]

Nancy Phifer: Homerooms were, I guess it was getting you ready to go to high school. You were in a placed in a homeroom, but you went through the day with that whole, that same homeroom. In other words, you didn't break up and go to this class and somebody went to this class. So what they did in their infinite stupidity or infinite cruelty, is they put a black person in each class. I guess they didn't want 'em to be together because they might've caused trouble

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: So that man sitting in that room all alone is my most vivid memory.

Reagan Petto: And so, to make sure I understand you correctly, you said that you don't remember there being many negative reactions...

Nancy Phifer: I don't.

Reagan Petto: ...in the school?

Nancy Phifer: I don't remember 'em.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: Does that mean they didn't happen? Oh no.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . Right.

Nancy Phifer: I'm told now that they did happen, but I wasn't aware of 'em.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: I truly wasn't aware of them.

Reagan Petto: Do you remember what the dynamic between the black student in your homeroom and the teacher was? Do you remember how the teacher navigated that new integrated space?

Nancy Phifer: Not at all.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: That's an excellent question. I have no recollection.

Reagan Petto: No, that's okay.

Nancy Phifer: I don't even know who the teacher was.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. No, no worries at all. Um, and so I, I remember you saying your parents were rather progressive.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: And, um, and your household, maybe it was not a very huge, um, talking point, this integration movement, 'cause it just felt very...

Nancy Phifer: Exactly.

Reagan Petto: It felt right to you guys.

Nancy Phifer: I don't remember having to go home and them saying, "What's it like?" Or...

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: ...anything. I don't remember having discussions about it particularly. Um.

Reagan Petto: What were the general feelings in your community? Like maybe in your neighborhood or your neighbors, maybe your extended family?

Nancy Phifer: I mean, I know I can tell you things that happened later on. Understand this was the first, this was the year that just a few students came. With total integration I can tell you more about some of the things that happened there.

Reagan Petto: Absolutely. Yeah.

Nancy Phifer: But during this year, I don't really remember. I don't remember any negatives.

Reagan Petto: You, would you like to speak on the later years of when it was like more full integration efforts?

Nancy Phifer: Okay. Understand that after that eighth grade year, we went back to segregation.

Reagan Petto: Oh, okay.

Nancy Phifer: My friends that I made in eighth grade went to Olive Hill High School, which was the all black high school.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: And that was, and they got to go there, which is what they really wanted to do. And they got to go there that one year and then that was the last year. Then full integration came when I was a sophomore in high school. So there's a gap between when I was in eighth grade and when I was in 10th grade.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Again, I don't remember the, I don't remember bad things happening. Maybe I've tuned 'em out, whatever. Um, I can tell you one thing that I, I know happened, but let me, let me talk about my community first. Um, a school opened, and I don't know if people remember this or not. A school opened in Hickory: North State Academy. And it clearly now, in hindsight, was a white-flight school. And people in my neighborhood, which was a, a nice upper middle class neighborhood, um, they would meet at the Baptist church parking lot, the North State bus would pick 'em up, and they would drive to Hickory. And that was clearly to avoid integration.

Reagan Petto: Mm. How long was that drive?

Nancy Phifer: Uh, hick--to Hickory? 30 minutes.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: So it was busing, but they didn't mind that busing.

Reagan Petto: Right, right. And what was the story that you said that you were gonna share?

Nancy Phifer: These are, it's like vignettes come back to you.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: And one of them is...two stories I'm gonna tell you.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Um, I don't know if you've ever heard of Coach McIntosh. He was very prominent and--Okay. I don't have to give y'all the whole history.

Reagan Petto: I mean, you, you could speak on him if you'd like just for the sake of providing context for your interview.

Nancy Phifer: He was wonderful. And, to give you an example, my, um, sister that's two years older than I am, was killed in an automobile accident and my father asked Coach Mac to speak at her funeral--when-- in the big white Presbyterian church.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: So that's kind of the way, that's why I have a bit of a, a more bias. My parents...

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

...weren't, weren't, weren't racist. You know, all white people are racist--we are--but, they weren't overtly racist. Um, but anyway, I digress. The Senior--our Senior year at Olive Hill, they had something--I think this is the way it went--they had something called "Miss Olive Hill High" and it was an academic thing. The smartest students. And so Coach McIntosh brought that to Morganton High. We'd never had that before. And I remember, and I, they may have just done it one year, but I remember that it came down to two people. I can tell you right now, Robin Bounous and Dorothy Conley. And Dorothy was smart as a whip, as was Robin. Robin was white and Dorothy was black. And the students got to vote. Well, I mean, that was, you know, it was Robin won in a landslide. But that's always kinda made me sad because if she'd been at Olive Hill, she would've been the, whatever, "Miss Olive Hill High School". The other thing that I remember so distinctly, Olive Hill had a beautiful tradition of, on Mondays, the men wore coat and ties. It was lovely. They would come to school and I, I, I always attribute these things to Coach McIntosh. I don't know if he's the one that started it there, but he's the one, he's one of the few, I think he's the only black teacher from there that got to come to Morganton High. I think the rest of 'em got pushed away, fired, whatever. And so he wanted to, I don't know if he wanted to continue it, but for the first, I don't know, some months, the black men would come on Monday in coats and ties. Can you imagine how lovely that was? But you know what? It fell by the wayside. It just always made me sad 'cause I thought that was such a nice tradition. Teach a young man how to, you know, dress, besides for church. That's all.

Thank you.

Nancy Phifer: Did those make sense?

Reagan Petto: Yes. No, it did. Thank you so much. And your...

Nancy Phifer: I'm not a very good storyteller.

Reagan Petto: No, but you're very elaborate.

Nancy Phifer: Oh, okay. Too elaborate .

Reagan Petto: No, no. Not at all. Not at all. Um, did, so you were saying that you think as a product of white flight, a lot of the, the white people in your neighborhood were taking a bus to Hickory...

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm.

Reagan Petto: ...to go to the school there...

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm.

Reagan Petto: ...post-integration...

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm.

Reagan Petto: or during integration.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: Um...

Nancy Phifer: And a lot of people went off to school, to prep school.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Right.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: The wealthy people that could afford it.

Reagan Petto: Right. So they left altogether.

Nancy Phifer: Yep.

Reagan Petto: Um, in what other ways did you maybe notice community relationships change?

Nancy Phifer: Oh man, I can't tell you any. You know, I, I can't think of anything. Um, obviously

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: She never came to my house. You know, we had our own separate groups and families and friends and that sort of thing. But I can't tell you, I don't remember there being bad stuff. I don't remember it.

Reagan Petto: So you're saying that although the schools were integrated, maybe the community...

Nancy Phifer: Socially, we were not at all integrated.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Correct.

Reagan Petto: Um, and what did that look like for you on, and also, when did that shift? When did you become more socially integrated?

Nancy Phifer: Well, long after my day.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: See, I graduated in high school in 68, went away, and have lived away for 40 years.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: And have just moved back. So, the social integration and still it's not, it's not, it's, it's obviously much better. But, um, that, it didn't happen during my day when I was a student here.

Reagan Petto: And you said after you graduated high school, you moved away?

Nancy Phifer: Uh-huh .

Reagan Petto: Did you attend university? Where did you go?

Nancy Phifer: I went to a school in South Carolina, a small women's college.

Reagan Petto: And what was that...What were the conversations like for seniors in high school post-graduation? And did you notice any differences between where the white students went after high school versus the black students?

Nancy Phifer: I feel like, and this may be not true, but I feel like, um, more black students ended up going into the military and ended up in Vietnam.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: And I don't, I truly don't know if that's true or not, but that's my perception.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: That they had less chance of going to college.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: Um, and of course I went away to an, an all white school that was just getting ready to integrate. So I kind of went through it in college too. But I, I knew a lot...I know many who became educated. And did they do it by going in the military and having the GI bill so that they got to come back and get educated? I know one man who that happened to, and probably more than one. That's all.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: That's all I can remember.

Reagan Petto: Um, and so when you attended your high school, um, and as it became more integrated, did you notice the resources available at your school shift in any way? Um, one example could be transportation. I know that you said the students going to Hickory, they had their own bus that would take them there. What did transportation look like for students pre and post-integration?

Nancy Phifer: I wouldn't notice any different. My parents always made me walk to school.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: And I'm guessing that the students, well, no. 'cause a lot of 'em came...I don't know. I don't know how they got there.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: Because now in, in the eighth grade, when I say just the ones close to the school, they probably walked to school. But when it became totally integrated a lot of black people lived across town. So I don't know how, I can't tell you anything about transportation. There was a school bus.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . I

Nancy Phifer: Don't know. I can remember the man who drove the bus . He was a student. And I don't remember if it had both black and white people on it or not. I don't remember.

Reagan Petto: Yeah. Um, I remember you speaking about Coach McIntosh.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: Um, and he seems like a very prominent leader in your community at this time.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: Um, do you remember any other leaders, groups, or collective events, um, that you or maybe your family participated in related to integration? Um, that could be in school, that could be in church, the NAACP?

Nancy Phifer: No.

Reagan Petto: No, just doc--just Coach McIntosh.

Nancy Phifer: I don't, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me. I knew a lot of black people in town. I mean, I had, we were a family who had a black person working for us.

Mm-Hmm.

All the time. So, I mean, obviously I knew her. And there was a woman across town who laundered my father's shirts.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: But those were not, they were just doing what they had to do to get by.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: I guess...

Reagan Petto: When I, when I say leaders, I just mean like, prominent community figures that were working towards integration efforts.

Nancy Phifer: You know, I don't, I don't know who they were.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Allen Fullwood jumps to my mind, but Allen was still young back then. So, no, I don't know. In my, in my era--this is 19, late 1960s--no.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: I'm feeling, I'm afraid that I'm forgetting somebody. For instance, I'll give you an example. When my, the woman who worked for us my entire life, the black woman, when she died

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: ...that I didn't know about.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: She never told me about the NAACP. I probably didn't even know it existed when I was a little girl growing up that house with her.

Reagan Petto: So I'm noticing a thread of you maybe being more sheltered from some of the things that were happening.

Nancy Phifer: Probably.

Reagan Petto: Why do you think that was?

Nancy Phifer: I think it was the way the community was set up. Allen Fullwood, and I'll use him as an example, um, he will talk about living on Bouchelle Street and walking to the end of Bouchelle and getting to a point where it was scary to, to venture out. And I lived on the part he was scared to venture out in.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: So my life was secure.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: So it's just that the, the town was segregated and we didn't come together.

Reagan Petto: When your high school was more fully integrated when you were a sophomore...

Nancy Phifer: Uhhuh .

Reagan Petto: ...what was the racial makeup of your class? Like how many students?

Nancy Phifer: It's so few. I can't, I wish I had my year, I, I can't tell you, but I know there was always a majority of white people.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: Cause the population of black people in Burke County is not that high, still.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Nancy Phifer: So I can't give you a number.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: If I found my yearbook, I can count em for you.

Reagan Petto: . Um.

Nancy Phifer: I'll tell you one, one, and I don't know, maybe this is gonna get to another question, but one thing I remember so well is, um, the recreation center. And I don't know if that happened from the get go, but I know at least by my Junior year, we were all going to the recreation center, like on Saturday--Friday and Saturday night playing the jukebox and dancing. Now we're black people dancing with white people? I don't, I don't know that happened. But we were all in that room together. And I don't know, that seems, that seems pretty nice to me that that could happen. 'Cause it looks like some of those parents would've said, "You can't go there with those people." I don't. It just, I just can remember being in this room where there was a jukebox. Y'all don't even know what a jukebox is. And there were black people in there and there were white people. We didn't dance with each other. I can remember seeing one black person, I'll tell you this, and I thought he was cute as could be. And that would've been, I wouldn't have even told my sister that.

Reagan Petto: Yeah. What did, what, what other extracurriculars do you remember from this time of integration? Were you involved in sports or other clubs? And what did that look like?

Nancy Phifer: I was a cheerleader. I was a cheerleader and there were no cheerlead--no black cheerleaders in my day. Um, I was--went to sporting events and a lot of black students, um, participated in the sporting events. And that was always, to me, it was fun. It was good. We cheered. We liked it. And the women's basketball team, in I think 1966, which was integrated and coached by a woman who was a Lumbee Indian--now you talk about going, touching all bases--won the state championship, basketball women's championship.

Reagan Petto: That was from your school?

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. From Morganton High School. Sure did. I was, I would've been a sophomore. My sister, it was my sister's class. 66.

Reagan Petto: That's amazing.

Nancy Phifer: It's, it was a great, it was great. And those people I think all got along on the team.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.

Nancy Phifer: But it was a great example of just all three discrimination that, they had the integrated team, they had a Lumbee Indian who was not respected because she was an Indian, and the girls had to go over to the old Olive Hill High School to practice 'cause the boys got the gym at the high school . So it was like women, black people and American Indian.

Reagan Petto: Mm.

Nancy Phifer: Kind of fun.

Reagan Petto: Um, I remember you saying you're still really good friends with one of the folks that you met during...

Cady Barlow: Mm-Hmm. ,

Reagan Petto: ...um, integration. And, um, on that note, how did your experience with integration efforts affect you as an adult? Both like, personally or also in your career? Like, just like how did your experiences in your early education impact you now, in terms of integration?

Nancy Phifer: I can't help but think that my experience, especially that eighth grade year, that had profound effect on me. And the sadness I felt for that man but also the relationship that I had with that woman. Um, I, I went on to become a doctor and worked in a practice that only served indigent patients. And so I had a lot of black patients. And I feel like maybe, maybe it gave me empathy. I like to think it did. That I had, and I, I somehow, I think I've always had an easy way of communicating with black people because of that. I would say certainly more so than those people who took the bus to Hickory...

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: ...or went off to those private schools.

Reagan Petto: Right.

Nancy Phifer: I sound like I'm being arrogant and I don't mean to be, I'm trying to be totally honest with you about how it might have affected me. I think it did have an effect.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. .

Cady Barlow: Do you think that the empathy that you gained is part of why you wanted to become a doctor? To help people?

Nancy Phifer: Um, of course I can't, my father was a doctor, so that was a big influence. But, the fact that I did the indigent care, um, yeah. Can I say it was all because of integration in eighth grade? No, but I'm telling you, I've told that story about the man in that class, my, in my classroom more times than I can count to people. And I always wanted to go back, I'm so glad this has all been done, 'cause I always wanted to go back and visit that. I think he's, I think both as, as you, you may not know statistics would have it. I think both the men that were in my class are dead. Black men have less the life expectancy, shorter life expectancy than, than white men. Um, the women are alive and, and thiving.

Reagan Petto: Um, the boy that you mentioned in your class...

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: ...homeroom, eighth grade.

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: Do you know, um, was, did he go to your school in high school?

Nancy Phifer: Mm-Hmm. .

Reagan Petto: Do you know where he ended up after high school? No?

Nancy Phifer: Hm-mmm. . I've Googled him.

Reagan Petto: Mmm.

Nancy Phifer: And that's how, somehow, I'm pretty sure I Googled him and found out that he died.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: The, the, they're all, that community of the people that did that, a lot of 'em are still in this county.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: Relatives. So I, you can almost always trace somebody back and go, "Oh my gosh! You're kidding. That was your brother?" That kind of thing.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . Um.

Nancy Phifer: So I don't know what he did. Did I follow him all the way through Senior in high school? Was I paying attention, attention to him? Not really. I don't really remember. I wasn't being mean, I just was, you know, involved in my own nonsense.

Reagan Petto: As one is.

Nancy Phifer: Trying to survive high school. .

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . And you were cheering, cheerleading!

Nancy Phifer: . And cheering. Right.

Reagan Petto: Um, so I'm gonna combine the last two wrap up questions.

Nancy Phifer: Okay.

Reagan Petto: Um, so I'm wondering what's important, what you think is important for people to know and understand about integration from your point of view. And, building off of that, are there any other stories or thoughts that you'd like to share that maybe, um, questions weren't able to allow you to cover during this interview?

Nancy Phifer: I think your questions have done a, a great job of jogging my memory. I can't think of anything. I wish... It's a, a little bit twofold. One part makes me sad. Those people loved Olive Hill High School and they looked forward to getting to go to Olive Hill High School. On the other hand, Olive Hill High School got our old books, our old band uniforms, whatever we were gonna throw away, that's what Olive Hill got. Um, and there was a woman who, in that group that, in 1963 that I'm talking about, the, the handful of students, there was a woman, I think, who got to go to Morganton High School because it, Olive Hill didn't offer the class that she needed. It was something like chemistry. It was probably something that had a lab, and they didn't have a lab. So people need to understand that those of us who have a leg up, ten legs up, there are other people way down there at the bottom rung. And it wouldn't hurt to give them at least, you know, one leg up and give everybody a fighting chance because they weren't getting it. They weren't getting the same thing that we were. And so, it was important. And that's why, that's why the Supreme Court had integration. They made it a law. Right?

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to...

Nancy Phifer: So, I just wish people could understand that that's a good thing, right? To reach out and help somebody?

Reagan Petto: Yeah, absolutely.

Nancy Phifer: We came back to this town and--my husband and I--and wanted to go to a church and we wanted to find an integrated church. And the only integrated church we could find was right here in this building. .

Reagan Petto: And when, when was this?

Nancy Phifer: Oh, two years ago.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: We just, we moved back here, retired back here.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Phifer: From Chapel Hill.

Reagan Petto: Okay.

Nancy Phifer: And so, we started going to my home church that, this, this is wandering off, but, it's, it's just that some things never change. And, um, we met the, the pastor, we went to my church that I grew up in, which was totally segregated just because, and so we met the pastor of this church and really liked him and started coming here. But it's one of the few integrated churches in this county. And as they say, Sunday's the most segregated day in America. It's still that way. Anyway, I digress.

Reagan Petto: Wow. Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to note before we close this out?

Nancy Phifer: I don't think so. I hope I didn't forget something, some poignant story. But, um...

Reagan Petto: You can always come back!

Nancy Phifer: Okay.

Reagan Petto: Yeah.

Nancy Phifer: Okay.

Reagan Petto: Yeah.

Nancy Phifer: I can tell Leslie.

Reagan Petto: Mm-Hmm, . Absolutely.

Nancy Phifer: That there was something I really wanted to tell.

Reagan Petto: She would be happy to meet with you, I'm sure. Well, Nancy, thank you so much for your time.

Nancy Phifer: Thank y'all!

Reagan Petto: This has been really wonderful.

Nancy Phifer: I'm impressed that y'all are doing this and proud of you.

Reagan Petto: Well, thank you for being here. It's not always easy to tell your story, especially to strangers. So...

Nancy Phifer: Yeah.

Reagan Petto: ...we're very thankful for you coming out in and speaking with us today.

Nancy Phifer: Good! Good. I'm glad to be here.

Reagan Petto: Of course.

Nancy Phifer: Can I get up and leave?

Reagan Petto: Yes, absolutely!

Nancy Phifer: Are you sure?

Reagan Petto: Yes! I'm sure.

Nancy Phifer: I don't wanna break any rules.