Children of the Struggle

Interview with Artie McKesson Logan, about the Seven Mothers. I put it where it'd pick up your voice better than mine if need be. Artie, if you will just start off by telling me how you fit into this story. What's your position within the story of the Seven Mothers?

Artie McKesson Logan: Well, I happened to be a friend all of their children. We played together in the neighborhood. We were used as models to break some barriers, certain things. For instance, we were groomed by these mothers to go to places like the recreation center and to see if we could gain access. We were told how to behave, and to be polite, and how to accept rejection without any rebuttal, which we did. They purchased brand new tennis shoes for us so that they wouldn't say that we were bringing dirt and sand and things in there because they had just recently refurbished the floor.

We wore our shoes, and we went there, and we were denied. Well, they said, because the floor was being refurbished. Of course, there were other Caucasian children that were playing on the floor. We accepted that and came back home, and we told the mothers what had happened. They said, "Wash the bottoms of your tennis shoes the next time, tie the strings together and throw them over your shoulders so that you won't track any dirt, or any sand, or any grit in there." We did that, and we were met by the director of the recreation center that said, "We prefer or you to go to another place to play." I said, "Why?" They said, "Because this is not for you all."

Shortly after that, they did build the Mountain View Recreation Center, but these children, we were used in those areas as a model to try to break through the barrier, but we got a lot of prompting and priming from these mothers.

These mothers were Willette Chambers. She was born in 1931, she passed in 2007, Mrs. Ruth Forney, born in 1926. She passed in 1994, Mrs. Annie J. Hicks. She was born in 1923 and she passed in 1979. Ms. Rosalie Johnson, born in 1929. She passed in 2002. Ms. Mildred Largent was born in 1930 and passed in 1997. Ms. Lucille Rutherford, I don't have the dates of her birth or the date of her passing, but she has passed since then. The last one was Ms. Laura Thomas, and I don't have her dates either, but these two ladies have died within the last eight years.

Leslie McKesson: You did pull up an obituary for them, those things. Okay, what was the timeframe, Artie, what years were we looking at, when you all were going to the gym and trying to play?

Artie McKesson Logan: This was back in probably in 1960, 1961, something like that because we weren't quite in high school. Before we go on, I'll start back from a person that was very instrumental in starting the group of the seven women and that was Reverend W.F. McIntosh. He allowed them to have secret meetings in his basement. They first would repair them, glue, tape, and whatever, and try to make them look decent. Another thing they did, they started repairing the old, worn-out high school band suits that we were given, that were handed down from the white schools. They would sew them, and repair them, and refurbish them so that we would be able to wear them. That's when it really started out. McIntosh was very instrumental, but he had to be a silent negotiator or a silent general of the army. He worked very silently because he had to stay in a position where he could help us and not bring to light that he was a part of it because he was in the educational system. He was one of the few that remained in the educational system.

Leslie McKesson: Now, tell me a little bit about that. When desegregation came, then it sounds like a lot of the blacks who had been previously teaching were let go. How did he end up remaining in the system?

Artie McKesson Logan: I don't like to use the word token, but I felt like there were a few that were tokens that were kept back so that we wouldn't make such a fuss about it. Reverend McIntosh, who was outstanding coach, of course, he had skills that they could carry over to Morganton High School. That was a very significant role that he had. I felt like they wanted to continue with that in his expertise, in coaching. We had Ms. Effie Williams who remained. Of course, she looked to be Caucasian. There was another one that was kept, and she had a lighter complexion, so in my mind, I don't know how they were thinking, but in my mind, they kept the ones that were of lighter complexion.

They kept Mrs. Izola Fleming. They kept Ms. Frankie Carson. All these people could pass for white. Most of them could pass for white. Those were a few of them that they kept. Even before that year, the integration in 1965 is when the last class graduated from Olive Hill. That following fall of '65, we went to Morganton High School. Now, let me back up a little bit because this is very significant. A lot of people don't know this, and I did bring it to their attention.

This hasn't been a part of history, but I did what they call the transition when I spoke. We'll go back even further than that in the school year of 1963/1964. Some of these children of these seven women really broke down the barrier then because they entered into Morganton Jr. High School as eighth-grade students. Those names were Florence Avery, who was the daughter of Ms. Janie Avery, who was--

Leslie McKesson: Tell me what school they entered again. Morganton Junior?

Artie McKesson Logan: Morganton Jr. High. Florence Avery. Now, her mother wasn't one of the Seven, but she was one of those that was quite an advocate and worked in the background. My feeling because of her position that she was working, she couldn't be that outspoken because some of these women were dismissed from their jobs. I'll talk a little bit about that. The year of '63/'64, Florence Avery, Barbara Roseboro, Charles Forney. Now, his mother was Miss Ruth Forney. She was one of the-

Leslie McKesson: Seven.

Artie McKesson Logan: Johnson. Then, there was another child by the name of Joe Lynn Clark. Now, mind you all these mothers, most of these mothers lived over in the Jonesboro area over near--

Leslie McKesson: Tell me how to spell Joe Lynn. Is it two words?

Artie McKesson Logan: Well, I spelled it J-O-E. Let's just put Joe Clark.

Leslie McKesson: Joe Clark. Okay.

Artie McKesson Logan: They weren't very well received. The reason the parents transferred them there because they felt like it was ridiculous for them to bypass the neighborhood school and travel to a further distance to attend a school. Now, they had to go to a school that was Olive Hill. They just lived within a few 100 yards. For them to track all the way across town and go to Mountain View School, they felt it was ridiculous.

Leslie McKesson: Okay. They were close.

Artie McKesson Logan: They did go over, and they did complete the eighth grade, but the children were just miserable. They were received with a lot of rejection and discrimination. They returned to the ninth grade at Olive Hill High School, which was within their neighborhood. They could walk to school in three to five minutes, whereas it would take a good 20, 25 minutes to walk across town to Mountain View.

Then, there was another significant situation. The first, before it was officially integrated by the majority, we had three students, Eugene Thomas, he was a son of one of the mothers, Lorraine Johnson, who was a daughter of one of the mothers, and Patricia Toms. They became the first African American students to graduate from Morganton High school in the class of 1965, which was a year before we did the integration.

Leslie McKesson: Okay. 1965

Artie McKesson Logan: These mothers, they were pretty much willing to risk their children and use as for lack of a better word, a Guinea pig to see how things would turn out. I just felt like they were just such unselfish and such brave women to put their own children's safety on the line. I don't think there was ever a threat or a feeling that they would be harmed significantly or killed, but they did put them on the line for them to experience emotional abuse and rejection.

Leslie McKesson: Have you read a thesis by Michael Ervin that makes reference to

Artie McKesson Logan: Yes. I helped him with that.

Leslie McKesson: Okay, good, good because I'm referring back to that, too. Are there any pieces in that that need to be added to or explained any further, anything you wish you could have gotten into that paper?

Artie McKesson Logan: It's been so long ago. He was a student in Asheville at UNCA. McIntosh and I helped him with that. Not that I can think of. Do you have any questions about any of that that was-- I haven't read it in quite a while.

Leslie McKesson: It's been a little while since I read it too. I think he did a pretty good job of pushing back against the biases that you tend to hear when stories are being told about black folks in Burke County, because what I get a lot is that they want to stop just short of the difficult conversations. They want to pull back when it gets uncomfortable. At the time, were there any newspaper articles, or was anything written about what was going on in the local newspapers?

Artie McKesson Logan: No, I don't, but there is one thing that comes to mind. We were not allowed to attend the junior-senior prom. The way they got around that was that they had rented a venue, which is the Morganton Country Club, Mimosa Country Club. There were personal invitations. It was only by invitation and none of the black students got the invitation. We weren't told until a few weeks before that the school would not be having a prom.

I must say, and I'm very appreciative, we had a prom. But it was Johnny Smith who was the director of Mountain View, heard about it. He went out, and he brought drinks, and popcorn, and snacks for us. We were able to dress up and go to a little prom at the Recreation Center, Mountain View.

Leslie McKesson: That was at the Mountain View.

Artie McKesson Logan: Some of the white kids were very accepting. As a matter of fact, about 10 or 15 after they left their prom at Mimosa Country Club, they came down and joined us. Other parts of the county, the transition was a little smoother in some areas. My understanding from those who attended Drexel, it didn't seem to be much of a problem at all, that they could not identify any specific problems that were very insulting to them. Of course, there were some children that were standoffish, some of the white children.

My understanding in Glen Alpine, those who joined the band like Vera Lytle and ... l can't remember his name, and others, they were more accepted. There was a trip that they went on. The band was competing, and they went on a trip. When they got to a restaurant and the children were going in to be fed, or the students were going in to be fed, they were told these two or three cannot come in to be fed. What the teachers did and the other students, the white students were very upset, so they refused to eat there and went to another restaurant.

There was some acceptance and there was some rejection. My personal experience in Morganton, 50-50. I will point this out, if you were a good student who came in with good grades, you didn't tend to have much of a problem. We felt like complexion played a part in that because those students that were of lighter complexion, we felt like there was more acceptance. I will say that there were teachers that just really welcomed some of us with open arms. Ms. Hester and Ms. Kate were two that just really went out of their way to make us feel comfortable.

Leslie McKesson: They were white.

Artie McKesson Logan: They were white. We didn't have any black instructors at Morganton High School. I think McIntosh was assistant coach. We also found out that those students who sung in the choir or played a sport was much more accepted. If you rank good academic standing, your skin was lighter, you played a sport, or you were in the choir, it looked like that they were looking for attributes that would help put the school on the map, like the good athletic talents from some of the students. Those students didn't seem to have any problems.

We were instructed by our parents to kindly stay out of the limelight. Don't make a fuss. Be there. Be silent but try to not be so visible. By that, they meant you follow the rules, you don't go in loud and boisterous. They made sure of course, we were dressed appropriately. Of course, we had come from a background where you couldn't wear jeans or anything like that. The boys--

Leslie McKesson: You had to wear dresses. Girls still did.

Artie McKesson Logan: We had to wear dresses. If you wore pants, you had to wear a dress over your pants. The guys had to wear a shirt and tie. Dress down day was on Friday when they didn't have to wear a tie.

Leslie McKesson: Now, did the white kids wear a tie?

Artie McKesson Logan: No. We were the best-dressed students in school. It wasn't something that we specifically did because that's what we were accustomed to. We were trained to do that.

Leslie McKesson: Wow. Not only the Seven Mothers but just mothers in the community, period. Parents in the community.

Artie McKesson Logan: Mothers in the community, period.

Leslie McKesson: Knew how to coach the kids.

Artie McKesson Logan: Yes. I have to say there were fathers. Slades Chapel, we like to call that the cradle or the area where it all began because they would have secret meetings in the basement of the church, under the direction of a Reverend Dr. J. L. Hunt who was also the pastor there.

Leslie McKesson: I remember Reverend Hunt.

Artie McKesson Logan: There were people like your father-in-law, George Nelson. I really want these guys to be known, George Nelson McKesson, Daidy Crisp who was the mortician.

Leslie McKesson: Davey?

Artie McKesson Logan: They call him Daidy.

Leslie McKesson: Daidy.

Artie McKesson Logan: I don't know his real name, I guess that may be it. Felix Brittan. These men played a very big role. Ed O'Neill, A-R-O-T-H-R-0-W Perkins.

Leslie McKesson: Arothrow?

Artie McKesson Logan: Perkins.

Leslie McKesson: Okay.

Artie McKesson Logan: What was Bud Tate's name ... Harry Tate, that's Greta Tate's dad. They were our backup, because when we were being used as models to go into these situations, they were around the corner. One time, we got a message from Dave Raider who was a taxi driver, and black people had to use the taxi a lot. He overheard a conversation from a group of whites. He let us know that they said they were going to get some of the nicest little black girls in the community and the word was used, "messed up." They felt like that that was a threat to rape. These men, during the night, would ride the streets with their shotguns and protect the black neighborhoods.

When we got out of school, some of them would be sitting in their cars, waiting to make sure that we weren't being abducted. The men could not come out. That's that old stigma that we've had for years. The black man's going to be much more of a threat and going to get punished much more. The black female could extend herself a little bit further, a little bit further. There was one black female that was a strong advocate, and she was penalized, and her name was Miss Mildred Largent. She became NAACP president and she also worked for the Morganton Housing Authority. When Mayor Andrew Kistler found out that she was involved with the movement he fired her. She was his maid and cook, so he did fire her. It didn't stop her, she kept on, but these mothers, even after some of us graduated from high school, they were very vigilant. They continued to watch over the affairs of the students that were being integrated into the school system.

Leslie McKesson: Now, this active patrolling, almost, that they had to do, how long did that last? How long did they have to stay on the down low watching from a distance, just to make sure that nobody did anything to hurt you all?

Artie McKesson Logan: I don't know if they ever really stopped anytime soon. I think it went on. Even when I went off to college, I know that they were still people that were keeping a watch. I don't know to what extent, but I do know that things were being reported back and we were getting the information of threats that were being made, but they never really carried through those threats. Let's see. We were quite upset. We didn't want to leave the schools. We didn't want to leave the black schools.

Leslie McKesson: Tell me a little bit about that, the general thinking of-

Artie McKesson Logan: I've got this here. I forgot I had it. I'm sorry.

Leslie McKesson: Go ahead.

Artie McKesson Logan: I talked about the biggest problem surfacing around prom time. Oak Hill's prom actually turned out to be more of a dinner in a cafeteria. They still had one that was poorly attended by the Caucasian students and the black students.

Leslie McKesson: Okay.

Artie McKesson Logan: Okay. There was a cross burned in the yard that night.

Leslie McKesson: Wow. Whose yard? The night of the prom.

Artie McKesson Logan: Yes. There was a cross burned in the yard that night and someone called Dale Fleming and advised that they not attend the prom. However, they went on without a significant incident. I'm not sure whose yard it was burned in. McIntosh knew about that. I don't know if this is-- Glen Alpine didn't experience significant problems. That person was Vera Lionel Bryant and Elias Bryant. Their prom went well. They only had the problem when they went out of town and going to the restaurant. Drexel High School, Mildred Berry Hopkins said that their prom went very well. They didn't have any problems. Of course, we talked about the exclusion in Morganton.

Leslie McKesson: Are you aware of discrimination in any areas, you said "If they were really good at music or really good at sports, they were elevated and uplifted. What about areas like cheerleading? I've talked to Beverly Carlton, and she shared her experience as someone who wanted to be a cheerleader and who was denied that. I got to get the full story of it from her, but her body type was ridiculed, I guess. She felt that she was discriminated against in her efforts to be a cheerleader.