Children of the Struggle

Alex Bouk: And make sure we're recording. Beautiful. We have a little backup recording device that we're learning how to use right now. So, um, I'm gonna go ahead and begin our interview. So, hello and thank you for coming to share your story with us today as part of the Children of the Struggle oral history collection. We are at New Day Christian Church in Morganton, North Carolina on Saturday, November 18, 2024. And we are talking with Charles McKesson or Jay Alexander. Can you tell us where you are zooming us from?

Charles McKesson: I am from Lexington, Kentucky.

Alex Bouk: Beautiful, beautiful. My name is Alex Bouk and I'll be your primary interviewer. We also have in the room Keya Nandi, who took your biographical information and Ethan Scheurich to my left who will be taking notes. Um, We are all students at Appalachian State University and we are conducting these interviews as a part of a class project. We have a standard set of 22 questions, and we may or may not get through all of them depending on what you'd like to share with us. If there is any question you prefer not to answer, we'll be happy to move on to another one. Again, we wanna thank you so much for your participation and let's get started. Okay. All right. We're gonna ask you some background questions just for our recording purposes. Um, what is your name and did you have a nickname or a different name when you were in school?

Charles McKesson: Uh, Charles Harold McKesson. I grew up by the name of Chuck, Chuck McKesson.

Alex Bouk: Chuck McKesson. Beautiful. And what school did you attend before segregation? Before desegregation?

Charles McKesson: I didn't. I was the first year going into desegregation in 1966 and Hillcrest Elementary was my primary school.

Alex Bouk: Wonderful. And how old were you when your school was integrated?

Charles McKesson: Six years old.

Alex Bouk: Six years old. Um, what was it like being black in Burke County when you were a child?

Charles McKesson: I didn't know any better. Uh, that was my first school attending. My older brothers went to segregated schools. Uh, I was the first one to attend a desegregated school, and so I didn't know any better.

Alex Bouk: Right. Okay. Did you travel outside of Burke County very often or experience different treatment in other places?

Charles McKesson: No.

Alex Bouk: Um, when you found out that you were going to be going to a school with black and white children, um, how did you feel about that? I know you said you didn't know any better, but were there any like, kind of preconceived notions about being there?

Charles McKesson: I, I didn't, uh, I spent a lot of time with my grandfather. He was just right across the garden as we said it when I was growing up. And so me and my brothers and my sister, we spent a lot of time, I, I remember this like it was yesterday because I still see that look and hear the tone in his voice to this day. He was a, he was a thorough consumption of CBS evening news with Walter Cronkite. So that evening, Walter Cronkite announced that all the court cases were done. Schools had to be (de)segregated. I was happy because I would be going close to home to Hill-Hillcrest Elementary School. My grandfather, who we called Daddy Charlie, he was in his rocking chair and he was just shaking his head. And I, as a child, being inquisitive as I was (asked), "Daddy Charlie, what's wrong?" He said, "Boy, come here." And he had a little foot stool at the end of his rocking chair and he said, "Sit down", and he looked me in my eyes, I still feel his gaze to this day. He said, "Boy, I don't care if you become a doctor, a lawyer, marry a beautiful wife, dress to the nines, even have a brick house and drive a Cadillac. Some people will still just see you as just a n-word."

Alex Bouk: Right.

Charles McKesson: He said, "Man, can change the law, but you cannot change the heart of the man who wrote that law." And to this day that, that, that still sticks with me.

Alex Bouk: Yeah, it

Charles McKesson: Really does.

Alex Bouk: Yeah.

That is, that's very, very wise words from him. I really appreciate you sharing that with us. So, um, obviously he had a very big influence on your life, and that's very, very wonderful and I'm very glad that he still sticks with you to this day. That's very beautiful. Um,

Charles McKesson: Thank you.

Alex Bouk: In terms of kind of the opinion and what things were people were saying, what were the general feelings about this event in your community?

Charles McKesson: Scared.

Alex Bouk: Scared.

Charles McKesson: Everybody was, was afraid. Apprehensive.

Alex Bouk: Yeah.

Charles McKesson: Because they didn't know what was going to happen. They were afraid. He was afraid. My parents were afraid, but they hoped for the best because that's what they, they fought for.

Alex Bouk: Right.

Charles McKesson: Is for the equalization for their children to go and be treated as equals.

Alex Bouk: Yeah. Um, do you remember what kind of differences stood, stood out to you? I know it was very early in your education, but the differences between integrated schools versus the white schools or the black schools. Do you remember any kind of differences between those?

Charles McKesson: I couldn't tell any because that was my first right time stepping foot into a schoolhouse. Yes. So at that point, at six years old, being so impressionable as I, it was, I thought it was just normal.

Alex Bouk: It was just normal to you. Perfect. Um, in terms of your classes, do you remember the racial makeup? Like how many white and black kids or how many other ethnicities you saw in your classes day to day?

Charles McKesson: Uh, we had my first grade class, if I can remember, three, four. But we had separate first grade classes, three or four first grade classes.

Keya Nandi: Mm-Hmm.

Charles McKesson: And it was three or four black kids in my first grade class with me.

Keya Nandi: Okay.

Charles McKesson: And the rest was white and I don't know how, how large the class was. I can't remember that.

Alex Bouk: Okay. Did that change over time? So as you went up through the grades, did those kind of, um, makeup change,

Charles McKesson: The balance? Stayed, pretty much stayed the same.

Alex Bouk: Perfect. Um, in your experience, how were like the relationships between students of different races?

Charles McKesson: I'm sorry, you were breaking up on that question. Oh,

Alex Bouk: Sorry. In your experience, um, at school, how were relationships between students of different races?

Charles McKesson: We didn't see it no different.

Alex Bouk: No different.

Charles McKesson: We all played ball together. We joked with each other. We, we just had fun. We, we really didn't at that point, didn't know a difference.

Alex Bouk: Yeah. That's beautiful. How were relationships between like faculty and staff of different races with their students?

Charles McKesson: We really didn't have much except for when I got to the third grade and there was one teacher that I was making all A's through and I was passing the classes in her third grade and they, she gave me a failing grade I, which I don't know why, and my parents couldn't understand why. So we, we chalked it up to that.

Alex Bouk: Okay. Um, could you tell me about what a typical day in school looked like for you?

Charles McKesson: . , uh, we would get there and we would learn to read and write and we'd have recess, which we were looking forward to. And pretty much a typical school day.

Alex Bouk: Just typical. I like that.

Charles McKesson: Yeah. Just a typical school day.

Alex Bouk: Um, in your experience with obviously your family and other people around you, did family or friendship or community relationships change because of desegregation?

Charles McKesson: Not really.

Alex Bouk: Not really.

Charles McKesson: Not, not in my opinion. It did because we grew up in a mixed neighborhood on Rocky Ford Street, and that was a village. I, I had white neighbors. We played together, we, because, and I didn't see any difference growing up and my parents made a point to make us see it, not see any difference,

Alex Bouk: I really like that. That's awesome. Is there any particular person, teacher, family member, I know you spoke about your grandfather, um, that stands out to you in this during this time period?

Charles McKesson: My grandmother.

Alex Bouk: Your grandmother?

Charles McKesson: My mom's mom. She always told me "There's no such word as can't."

Alex Bouk: Mm.

Charles McKesson: You're just as good or better than anyone else. So there's no such word as can't.

Alex Bouk: I like that a lot. Um, do you have, were there any leaders of groups or collective events you or your family participated in related to desegregation?

Charles McKesson: No.

Alex Bouk: Okay. Did you have any experiences with discrimination outside of the school environment that you'd like to share with us?

Charles McKesson: I can't think of anything that was just, just judged basically on race, because that's not the way I see life.

Alex Bouk: Right. Okay. Um, how did this experience shape you as an adult, either personally or in your career?

Charles McKesson: But my grandmother's words have always said, there's no such word as can't, so I do 10 times better than anyone else, and I'll make sure I do that because there's no such word as can't.

Alex Bouk: Right.

Charles McKesson: None.

Alex Bouk: Right. Um, do y'all have any questions you would like to ask?

Keya Nandi: Um, yes, I do. So when you joined school, did you have any, oh, I'm sorry if you can't hear me as well, but did you have any career, um, like in mind and as you grew older, did that career seem, um, like reachable to you or did it change or how did that, like how does that, how did that shape who, what career you ended up in? Today is my question.

Charles McKesson: I've worked at commercial radio for 40 years. Radio is always what I wanted to do.

Keya Nandi: Okay.

Charles McKesson: Uh, and I still lean on my grandmother's words, no such word as can't. So I applied myself and I've been doing commercial radio commercial voiceovers for over 40 years.

Keya Nandi: Awesome. That's really cool. I've never met anyone in that industry.

Alex Bouk: How has that been, that's such an interesting career. I know that obviously you love it.

Charles McKesson: It's been a journey. It, it has been

Alex Bouk: A journey.

Charles McKesson: A journey. But with consolidation back in the eighties, everything is getting smaller.

Alex Bouk: Mm.

Charles McKesson: So I'm at, in my home studio now, I still do afternoons for the radio station. Plus, uh, I have picked up a second career. I'm the, uh, public information officer for community corrections here in the city. So, uh, I'm handling two jobs.

Alex Bouk: Oh, very, very interesting. Um, would you mind telling us which radio station you work for?

Charles McKesson: 107.9 WBTF 107.9 The Beat.

Alex Bouk: Amazing. What is important for people to know and understand about your life or desegregation from your point of view?

Charles McKesson: That people are people. Skin coloring is just a, is just a wrapping. Everybody has a heart, soul. We have more in common than we have apart, and we just have to be stop being crazy about skin color that one person's gonna do better because they're this one person's gonna do better because they're that It's not, it's all here. It's all in the mind. Mm-Hmm.

Alex Bouk: Mm-hmm

Charles McKesson: It's all what you put yourself and apply yourself to it.

Alex Bouk: Are there any other stories or thoughts you'd like to share with us or are there any questions you wish we would've asked you before now?

Charles McKesson: I can't think of anything.

Alex Bouk: Okay, perfect.

Charles McKesson: Really,

Alex Bouk: Ethan, do you have anything you would like to add?

Ethan Scheurich: Um , I guess not

Alex Bouk: Keya?

Keya Nandi: Um, thank you so much for your time.

Ethan Scheurich: Yeah, of course. Thank you.

Charles McKesson: Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Alex Bouk: We really appreciate you taking the time to zoom in with us. Um, thank you so much for sharing your story. I think that it was just such a beautiful explanation, very informative. Um, this perspective is something that I, I don't think we have enough of, and I'm just so, so grateful that you took the time to meet with us. This has been really amazing. Um,

Charles McKesson: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it

Alex Bouk: Thank you so much. After this interview gets transcribed, uh, Dr. McKesson will contact you so you can read through the transcript, make sure everything looks right to you. And if you have any questions for her, just shoot her email, shoot her text. Um, we'll be happy to make sure you have any, anything you need. Um, I do have one more form I just need to know, um, for like copyright and licensing purposes, since this is going in through the library, um, you can give us either, you can either transfer this to like the public domain so that like there's no copyright on it.

Charles McKesson: Mm-Hmm.

Alex Bouk: Um, or you can have the non wait hold on. Or you can give the copyright to the museum and the library, which gives you a non-exclusive license for the complete and unrestricted right to reproduce, publish, broadcast, transmit, perform, or adapt this interview. And then you can also just main retain the copyright to this interview and grant a non-exclusive license to the museum and library for distribution to the public for non-commercial education purposes. Um, just under fair use of the copyright law. So do you have a preference?

Charles McKesson: Uh, I don't, I, I'll talk to Leslie and, and ask her and she'll tell you.

Alex Bouk: Perfect. Thank you so much. Okay. We'll just make, we'll, we just wanna make sure that your story is yours

Charles McKesson: Yes.

Alex Bouk: And that it stays with you. Okay?

Charles McKesson: Okay. Sounds good.

Alex Bouk: We thank you so much for being here. Have a great rest of your day.

Charles McKesson: Thanks, you too.

Alex Bouk: Have a good one. Bye.

Charles McKesson: Thanks. Bye.